Understanding Diverse Gender Identities: Conversation with Late Khursand Bayar Ali (Recorded 2020)

In this archival conversation from 2020, Zeeba T. Hashmi speaks with the late Khursand Bayyar Ali, a human rights defender from Lahore, about gender and gender identity in Pakistan, and about what education, the law and state institutions need to change.
Khursand explains the difference between sex (jins) and gender (sinf), non-binary and fluid identities, and why Khwaja Sira is a cultural identity rather than a gender identity. She discusses the Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Act, 2018, the identity-card process at NADRA, inheritance rights and policing, and the treatment of minorities. She closes with recommendations on textbooks and sex education, the Single National Curriculum, HIV/AIDS awareness and medical education.

At the time of recording, Khursand Bayyar Ali was a member of Pakistan's Country Coordinating Mechanism representing key populations, and in 2017 she started Nautanki, a creative initiative and theatre group. She has since passed away. This recording is shared in her memory.

Chapters
0:00 Introduction
4:30 Sex and gender: what is the difference
8:04 Beyond the binary: non-binary and fluid identities
13:03 Femininity, feminism and "Mera Jism Meri Marzi"
15:58 The Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Act, 2018
19:27 Identity cards and NADRA's gender assessment form
22:09 Khwaja Sira as a cultural identity
25:28 Inheritance, police and access to justice
31:53 Minorities and conflict within the community
34:28 Breaking stereotypes and recommendations
39:55 Textbooks and sex education
42:15 HIV/AIDS and media campaigns
43:31 Institutions, training and the SDGs
46:17 The Single National Curriculum
50:30 Medical education and closing

Notes for viewers:

• Legal update: in May 2023, the Federal Shariat Court struck down key provisions of the 2018 Act, including those on self-perceived gender identity and inheritance. The appeal before the Supreme Court was still pending as of May 2026. The law is discussed here as it stood in 2020

• At about 7:03 and 51:00, "gender dysphoria" is attributed to the WHO. The WHO's ICD-11 uses "gender incongruence"; "gender dysphoria" is the term in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5.

• Passages where the original audio is unclear are marked [unclear] in the English subtitles and "..." in the Urdu subtitles.

Credits
Host: Zeeba T. Hashmi
Guest: Khursand Bayyar Ali
Urdu transcription, English translation and Urdu subtitles were prepared with AI tools and reviewed.
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